Discussion on Spirituality, Happiness and Mind, between Ravi Kathuria and Louie Free
The Louie B. Free Radio Show hosted by NBC Affiliate 21 WFMJ of Youngstown-Warren, Ohio, invited me as a guest on their show. Facebook facebook.com/louiebfree, Twitter @louiebfree & Instagram instagram.com/louiebfree/
I relished the conversation. It is such a deep satisfaction to discuss spirituality and the path to happiness with someone who has such an appreciation for it.
The host of the show, Mr. Louie Free is a delight. We talked about the simplicity of non-religious spirituality and how it can lead to happiness. He probed me on the ways to quiet the mind. I really enjoyed him and his positive energy. I appreciate his keen interest in the subject and that of his listeners.
You can watch the video above and/or read the entire interview below. Thank you.
— Ravi Kathuria, Author, Spirituality Book, “Happy Soul. Hungry Mind.”
Full interview
Louie: Ravi, I've got to tell you, I've been having a great time talking with you off-air and I'm honored to have you, if you would, please introduce yourself and tell us about yourself.
Louie: Tell me, if you would, a little bit about your path to where you are today. And again, I love the book and I've been talking about the book “Happy Soul, Hungry Mind.”— A Modern Day Parable about Spirituality. Tell us a little bit about your path if you would.
Ravi: Yes. Thank you, Louie. Thank you for your feedback on the book. I’d love to talk to you more about it. Love to hear what you think about it.
Ravi: It's been an interesting path. I remember when I used to be 14, 15, actually it was 15 when I first meditated. It was the most incredible experience that I ever had.
Ravi: My family and mother were very spiritually inclined. My father followed a guru in India, and I watched him meditate for hours. He was very philosophical. I loved listening to him and his friends discuss spirituality and philosophy. That was amazing.
Ravi: I grew up in that household and I remember when I was in high school, I would not spend time playing with my friends. I would spend time walking in a playground thinking about why I came to Earth and who sent me.
Ravi: I will admit, I was a little bit afraid of dying at that point. And I was having this argument with whoever it was, and I said, "Look, this is my decision. I will decide when I die. Nobody else will."
Ravi: The spiritual pull has been there, from a young age, and yet I have spent the last 30 years, I blinked my eyes, and 30 years went by. I have spent time being an entrepreneur, creating two businesses, working for corporate America, I had five jobs, and then have authored two books. And it has come full circle. As I have looked at life, this thought has been in my mind, when I die, it will not matter how much money I have in the bank. What will matter is if I found my inner peace.
Ravi: Because all the money in the bank is not going to change anything, it will either make my doctors rich or my descendants rich, but it's not going to do anything for me and I'm not going to be able to take my money with me.
Ravi: I called the State Department. I said, "How can I take my money with me after I die?" They were not kind to me. Louie, they were not kind to me.
Louie: Ha, ha. I love your sense of humor. Ravi, I love your sense of humor. Go ahead.
Ravi: I realized, all these worries and tensions and pressures about money, I have coached very successful CEOs. They have incredible amounts of money, very powerful. And guess what? They're still worried about money. We all have to find our inner peace.
Ravi: As I look at my life, it is about going back to my center, I think that applies to me, and it applies to each one of us. We have to discover that inner peace within us.
Louie: You desire to want to share that with people.
Ravi: Yes.
Louie: Tell me about that.
Ravi: Thank you. A beautiful question. As I have thought about spirituality, spirituality has never been away. I have spent years thinking about it. Initially, when I would listen to all these gurus and spiritual authors, they made spirituality so complex and I wondered about that. If this is fundamentally who we are. Why is it so complex, why did, God, Almighty, the Universe, why did it make spirituality so complex, so difficult to understand?
Ravi: You look at the scriptures, they are thick. And even if you have three degrees, to go through scripture is not for the people who are not committed. I'm spiritually inclined, but every time I picked up a book, the subject is so heavy, I wondered, why is it that way?
Ravi: And then, I had a revelation, I suddenly realized spirituality is not complex. These gurus, these spiritual authors, these leaders had made it complex in their description. They have used such words, they've used such descriptions that have made it so complex.
Ravi: The day I realized, spirituality is stunningly simple, I had to share that. The world needs to know that because the majority of us are not thinking about spirituality on a day-to-day basis when we should be.
Ravi: When we realize, how simple it is, then we can incorporate it into our lives, and we can make the quality of our lives so much higher. It is the most amazing thing that we can do for our lives, and it is there for us and we're almost overlooking it.
Louie: The simplicity of it, and that's one of the things that I love you talk about and write about in your book, “Happy Soul, Hungry Mind.” By the way, folks, happysoulhungrymind.com. I've got links. WFMJ.com.
Louie: I wonder why sometimes some of the books on spirituality are so complex, and I shouldn't say needlessly, but sometimes, people will give up, stop, because of the complexity. We need spirituality, we need it in our lives, I hate to say now more than ever. Always, but I'm going to say now more than ever.
Ravi: Yes. We need it now more than ever because of world events, but also because of our evolution. As I read more, I find people are beginning to yearn for true spirituality. They are looking for that awakening.
Ravi: They are looking for the simple truths. And that is my purpose. As I was writing this book, “Happy Soul, Hungry Mind.” I realized I was writing about things that I did not know existed in me. They were manifesting themselves. They were revealing themselves -- these spiritual truths. I was baffled. I was amazed.
Ravi: It's like somebody walking on the beach and stumbling onto these gems. You have these gems in your hand and you say, I need to share these with the world. I need to go out and let the world benefit because these Spiritual Truths have such great power, they have such a potential to change our lives.
Ravi: We need to realize spirituality is simple.
Louie: Talk with me more if you would, Ravi, about them unveiling themselves to you?
Ravi: I talked about listening to the spiritual gurus and leaders and I would get turned off because of the complexity. I haven't really listened to them much.
Ravi: I had my thoughts about spirituality. And I would capture these thoughts. And I knew at some point I would like to start writing a book.
Ravi: But it was when writing this book, initially, the book became overwhelming. It was scary, I remember there was a night, when I said, "Oh, wow, there is so much here, I don't know if I will be able to piece it together." I wondered if my brain could actually comprehend and if I could put my arms around it.
Ravi: It was almost as if I was looking at this tsunami wave and it was ready to engulf me. I was overwhelmed and I was maybe scared and maybe doubtful. What have I taken on?
Ravi: I don't know if this happens to other authors, but it happens to me. And I'm willing to reveal it on a national radio station right now.
Ravi: As an author, I would wake up one day and I would have self-doubt. I would go, nobody's going to care about what I'm writing. What do I know? I don't know anything. And there is so much written on this subject. Who am I to think that I can add anything to this topic of spirituality? I mean, isn't that arrogance? Who am I?
You have self-doubt and you say, okay, this is so overwhelming, I cannot make sense of it. And then you wake up the next morning, and something has sorted out and then you see the light and you go, "Oh, my God, this is so powerful! This is what the world needs!” Until the next day when you go, "Oh my God, I cannot write a sentence."
You go through this roller coaster, it's unnerving. God bless my family for putting up with it. One day you think you're on the top of the clouds, the other day you think you are dust.
Ravi: Then slowly but surely, it began to all fit together. And as I wrote more, these concepts by themselves became very clear. There are a few things that I have written in the book, I have no idea where they come out from. I had no idea they existed in me. Now when I read it, I go, "Wow, this is incredible. This is fantastic. This is amazing.”
Now that I think about it, it has to be universal knowledge, which is manifesting. We are tapping into and it's just showing through. It flows through. These Spiritual Truths have left me amazed. I hope, people, when they read the book, realize the fact these are so simple and yet they are so stunning. If you think about it, they are just incredible.
Louie: Well, again, it's that simplicity you write about, about spirituality being simple and available to everyone. For some reason, there's certain... I'm going to say there are some organizations that benefit economically, I believe, by making it more complex.
Ravi: Yes.
Louie: You've got to come only through us, or only through me, or only through this organization, or membership in this organization, only then can you find God, if you will, or tap your soul or spirituality.
Ravi: Yes.
Louie: You make it accessible for everybody.
Ravi: Yes. That's a great point. And I will I, I hope I do not offend anybody, but I will go there. I will go there. Religion and I'm a religious person. I'm a religious person. But I've understood there's a big difference between religion and spirituality.
Louie: Yeah.
Ravi: I explain religion is like the picture of a pizza. It’s a very beautiful picture and you can hold a picture of the pizza and you can feel good about it, but it can never satisfy your hunger. Spirituality is actually eating the pizza.
Ravi: Now, religion is important because it reminds you of the pizza, it puts you in the mood for a pizza. So, there is a place for it. But if all you do is hold on to the picture and never actually eat the pizza, you have just deprived yourself. Plus, the picture of the pizza can never, ever, give you the true experience of the pizza.
Ravi: You can argue and say, well, my picture is better than your picture, but the people who are arguing have never eaten the pizza. They can spend time with this argument, it is great intellectually, but it doesn't do anybody any good.
Ravi: It is the eating of the pizza which satisfies. Spirituality is the real deal. I listen to religious leaders and they have found a way to exclude people. They come up with ways in which, they say, you cannot have this, this is so exclusive. You have to jump through hoops. You have to almost be superhuman to get this. To me, that is just... I'll be nice -- it's misleading.
Louie: I love how you paused for a minute, "I'll be nice. It's misleading."
Ravi: Everyone on Earth, who is a human being has spirituality in them. Nobody can give it to you, and nobody can take it away from you. It is in your DNA and it doesn't matter which religion you follow, whether you follow a religion. It does not matter. It does not matter whether you're a man or a woman or transgender. It does not matter whether you are gay or straight or bisexual. It doesn't matter whether you're rich or poor.
Ravi: It doesn't matter whether you're a Democrat or a Republican.
Louie: Ha ha.
Ravi: We have unity in the country. Does not matter whether you're independent. I am here to tell you, every one of you, and you don't have to come to me, you don't have to go to happysoulhungrymind.com or RaviKathuria.com to get spirituality. You already have it. I cannot give it to you. You're born with it. This is something in your back pocket. It's the most amazing thing. It doesn't matter if you're Asian or American. It does not matter who you are. As long as you're a human being, your DNA has spirituality in it. You have this capability, and it's the most amazing thing.
Louie: Again, it's HappySoulHungryMind.com. I would urge you to get the book and read the book. Talk with us a little bit about happiness.
Ravi: We have spent all our lives seeking happiness. We all want to be happy and what we have done is that our mind tells us how to be happy. The mind says, okay, if you acquire this thing, I will be happy. It could be an asset, or it could be a relationship. If you're starting out from school, you say, if I get a job, I'll be happy. If I buy a house, I'll be happy, the American dream, or if I build a business, I'll be happy or if I find a spouse or a partner, I'll be happy. If I have three kids, I'll be happy. If I'm elected senator, I'll be happy. If I get my first movie break, I'll be happy.
Ravi: What we're doing is satisfying the mind, to achieve happiness. But the problem with the mind is, as the book says, the mind is ever hungry. It's restless. The mind can never be satisfied, no matter what you give it.
You ask billionaires if they're satisfied. Look at the way they talk, they are in search of their next billion. Those of us who are not billionaires think, oh, if we had a billion dollars, that would be it. I would just sleep. Look at billionaires, they're not sleeping. They're in search of their next billion. They're working towards the next billion as hard as their first billion.
Ravi: The mind is never satisfied. That is the realization we have to come to. The happiness that the mind gives, there's nothing wrong with that happiness, the nature of that happiness is it's transient. It only lasts for a certain time. Over time, the happiness that you get even from your Ferrari is not the same level of happiness that you had on the first day, it begins to diminish.
Ravi: Your spouse was so wonderful while you were dating the spouse and then… oh, my God, I want to get into that subject (laughs). Same person, and you go, well, things are different.
Ravi: Where is true happiness? True happiness and everlasting happiness cannot be achieved through the mind. It can only be achieved by going beyond the mind.
Ravi: When you transcend the mind and the happiness that you find by transcending the mind, that happiness is not transient. It's permanent happiness and it should be the purpose of our life to experience that inner peace because then that gives us everlasting and true happiness.
Louie: I like how you say that because things aren't going to give us happiness and things are fleeting. You know, I, again and I don't want to go too long with this, but I was talking with some people about how many people are playing this big lottery. You know, there's a lottery, the national lottery. I think it's going to be like 600 million. It's interesting to me when a lot of people start to come out and play the lottery. I had a ticket for last night too, why not, two bucks, give it a shot. But again, I don't want to sound like I'm putting my finger at people, but what's interesting to me, and I was speaking with someone about the lottery to talk about how many people are buying tickets and how many more people, that all of a sudden if it hits like a half a billion dollars, that gets people off the couch to go play. Six million, which is the one in Ohio, which is the standard one somehow, I don't know, that's not enough?
Louie: I hate to say it because it's going to sound very judgmental. It is judgmental. The people that I see play, I think six million would probably do them just fine, maybe half a million or whatever. But it's something about that dream of, wow, that's now hundreds of millions of dollars. And all of a sudden that would bring me happiness.
I'm not discounting the ability to do good things with lots of money. You are very successful. Your business background, being quoted by The Wall Street Journal, Barron's, World News, NPR. You've been featured on PBS Nightly. I did my homework. Can you tell? Ted Talks, Business journal, etc.. you wrote a book, "How cohesive is your company?" You know, and it's clear that money doesn't, it can bring security for people, economic security of itself. Like you said about the Ferrari, buy the Ferrari, it feels great for a while, and it diminishes.
Ravi: Yes. You're right, you buy the Ferrari. The first day you drive it home and your wife's really upset, and you don't care, you go, I just drove home in a Ferrari, what does it matter? Two years later, you drive home back in the Ferrari, and your wife's upset. That drive home in the Ferrari doesn't make up for marital discord. Your husband could be upset, and you could be a woman driving home in a Ferrari. It doesn't matter. What I have found is that no matter what you get in life, there is no perfect happiness, until you go beyond the mind.
Ravi: You can win the 600 million dollars in the jackpot. Then you go home and suddenly you realize all your relationships have changed. Overnight. Your immediate relationships with your spouse, partner, your kids, your parents, your siblings, your extended family, your friends. That lottery will completely disrupt your relationships.
There is a high involved with winning money. It could be a step-change in your financial situation. But that high lasts only a while. After... they have done this research, you watch these TV programs of people who won the lottery and their level of happiness two, three years after the event goes back to the level that was before the lottery. They get used to the money.
Ravi: Happiness comes from our state of mind. It really comes from our perspective on life, on how we approach life. That happiness is still subject to our perspective, our thinking, our approach to life, if we really want true happiness, we have to begin to understand that true happiness lies, there is no problem in earning money, there is no problem in having a good family, there is no problem in living in a nice house and driving a nice car. We need to do that. There is no reason that we have to be homeless and live under the freeway. That's not what life is about. We need to have a good, decent life and have very good relationships with our family and have a good family life. But what we have to start understanding is that is only one dimension of life.
There is a dimension of life, the spiritual dimension that is available to us 24/7 that is accessible to us, we don't have to go anywhere. We have to touch into that and expose ourselves and build-up and progress in that spiritual dimension, because the happiness that we begin to get there is more powerful than winning the six hundred million dollar jackpot.
Ravi: Now, it doesn't mean that if you came to me and said, look, here's a winning ticket, will you take the six million dollars. Please, that's what I'm saying. If you have a winning ticket somewhere and you want to give me a call.
What I have to realize is that there is a limited value for that. I can have that. And this is actually, this is the most beautiful point. If you have inner peace. If you have connected with that inner peace that is there within you, you will enjoy that 600 million in a way that is far superior to if you did not have that inner peace. If you had inner peace and you had only 60 dollars in the bank, you would enjoy that 60 dollars, far better than you would if you did not have inner peace, and that is the power in life, is that all of us have that capability, have the capability to experience this inner peace.
When we begin to connect with it, our same existing life suddenly becomes golden. That is the message, that is the message that every one of us and if you are religious, good for you. If you are an atheist, good for you, it doesn't matter. Connect with your inner peace. That will take the quality of your life so much higher.
Louie: I'm talking with Ravi Kathuria. His Book Happy Soul, Hungry Mind, a modern-day parable about spirituality. Go to Ravi's website for more information. Happy Soul, Hungry mind, get the book, read the book, beautifully written. You write that your mind is an instrument for you to engage in the material world. It's not a tool to access the spiritual world. You can experience God only through your soul. Your soul is the handshake, like the conduit to God. Talk a little bit more about accessing that through your soul.
Ravi: Yes. Well, thank you, Louis. Thank you for picking that paragraph from the book. Yes. How beautiful is that?
Ravi: We, from our birth, we have used our mind to engage with the material world, in fact, those of us who are religious have used our mind to pursue God. But the mind is not the tool, it is not the vehicle, it is not the medium to access God. Why? God is an infinite phenomenon, the mind can only deal with finite things, the mind when it tries to deal with the infinite, it gets overwhelmed. The mind is not the tool.
That is why I have a problem with religious leaders when they are preaching to your mind. Because your mind can never experience God.
It's like we talked about the pizza. If I give you a picture of a pizza you can never taste it unless I come home, deliver the pizza and you taste it with your tongue. You have to have the sense of taste. Your eyes, no matter how long they stare at the pizza can never taste the pizza. Nothing wrong with your eyes. They are perfectly fine, 20/20 vision, but they cannot taste the pizza. Only your tongue can.
God cannot be experienced through the mind. Nothing wrong with the mind. The mind is not designed for the God experience.
Ravi: So how do you experience God? Because the mind will tell you, let me go to this religious place, let me go to this pilgrimage site, let me go to the skies or go to the clouds or let me go to the end of the universe. You're not going to find God. You are only chasing the God-concept that your mind has, which is a finite concept. We see God in the image of man, we see this trivialized version of God, and that is why you will never experience God through your mind.
Ravi: The only experience of God is when you quiet the mind. When you quiet the mind completely, and the mind is completely still, what happens is your soul, this life force, you call it the soul, the spirit, atma in Sanskrit, it doesn't matter what name you call it, there is a life-force, there is an energy in you, and you begin to experience it when your mind is completely quiet.
Ravi: Just like when there are clouds, you cannot see the sun. But when the clouds dissipate, the sun shines through. When your mind becomes completely quiet, your soul becomes self-evident, it shines through.
Ravi: The experience of your own soul, the experience of your own life energy is spirituality. This is the most stunning, simplest definition of spirituality.
Ravi: What is spirituality? Spirituality is the experience of your own life, energy. You don't have to go anywhere. You don't have to go to the Himalayas. You don't have to go to a monastery. That life force is in you right now. And the only thing that prevents you from experiencing your own life force is your mind is constantly working. When the mind becomes completely quiet, your soul becomes self-evident, like the sun becomes self-evident when the clouds dissipate.
Ravi: When we experience the soul and the mind is completely quiet, it is our first handshake with infinity. That experience of the soul, as it becomes stronger is what is called the God experience.
Ravi: God is infinite, and now you are shaking hands with the infinite because the tool that was used previously, the mind, is completely quiet and now you have no boundaries, no physical boundaries, no mental boundaries. The mind is completely sublimed, and you touch infinity.
Ravi: If you look through history, all the avatars, the prophets, the messiahs, the Buddhas, every one of them, what they're describing is this God experience, which has been beyond the mind. And when you experience that, that is your true nature, because your life force, that life energy is part of this infinite cosmic energy and you awake to is the true potential and true purpose of your life.
Louie: Absolutely beautiful. I'm enthralled by you, HappySoulHungryMind.com. Ravi, when you… another email just popped up. Can you talk a little bit more about quieting the mind?
Ravi: Yes. The mind, by nature, is restless. But the mind also can be allowed to become quiet and I use this example for those of you who have a pet. You have a little puppy and when the puppy is very energetic, if you try and control the puppy, the puppy will fight back. It's going to not calm down, he is going to pull, and you can try and catch him, but he'll be upset. Right. He has a lot of energy. So how do you quiet the puppy? What you do is you take him in the backyard, or you take him to a park, and you let him run. You tell him, run, run as much as you want. And the puppy goes and does whatever he needs to do. And he runs and runs and runs and runs. And then he comes and sits at your feet. You can try to push him away but he's not going to go. He'll sit at your feet and put his head down.
Ravi: The mind is the same thing. The mind likes to run. What do you say to the mind? Okay, if you want to run, run. But then ultimately, the mind will calm down and learn to become quiet.
I have a meditation technique. I have a video on simple, powerful meditation that is on YouTube, also on my website. It is the simplest meditation you can find. A lot of people tell me meditation is difficult for me, I find it boring. This meditation is as simple as it can get because all it is, is to just sit down, close your eyes and let the thoughts flow and you don't do anything. Your job is to observe. If you can observe the thoughts, great. If you get caught up in the thoughts, that's okay too. Don't feel guilty. You have no expectations. You just let the mind do whatever.
Ravi: Over time, if you do this regularly, day after day, you just sit down and relax. You will begin to notice fleeting moments of quiet silence. You have a lot of thoughts and suddenly you will experience a little bit of silence. And you watch that, you observe that, and it will go away, and in the beginning, they will come infrequently, but as you do this for weeks and months and years, these moments of silence, these glimpses of silence will become more frequent. You will experience more silence than thoughts.
Ravi: As you meditate the mind learns to become quiet and you will be on the path to experiencing your own life force.
In my book, “Happy Soul, Hungry Mind,” I share the spiritual path, which is to transform your thoughts, mature your perspectives, quiet your mind. It's a spiral, and it keeps going until you experience your soul.
To quiet the mind, please meditate and meditate using the simple basic method that I have shared. Over time, you will begin to experience your inner peace. It is the most fascinating aspect of your life.
Ravi: I will share with you the simplest and grandest spiritual statement. I hope your listeners, Louie, pay attention to this. Let me share with you this statement, which is the ultimate purpose of life.
Ravi: Quiet your mind to experience your own soul. That is it. That is the essence of life. It cannot get any simpler than that. It cannot get any grander than that. I will repeat it.
Ravi: Quiet your mind to experience your soul.
Louie: Beautiful. I so enjoyed this. Can you take just a minute and talk about your website, HappySoulHungryMind.com if you will?
Louie: You're a very nice guy. Again, I would urge people to go to the site HappySoulHungryMind.com. I really enjoyed this, and I would love to continue this conversation with you down the road if you're up for it. I love the way about you. You make it so accessible and you make it accessible for everybody. And I love that about you Ravi. You really do. And you, you've got such a wonderful way about you, such a wonderful personality.
Ravi: Thank you, Louie. And Louie is absolutely right, thank you, Louie, for underscoring this point. Thank you for reminding me and for reminding all your listeners of this point that Louie is making.
Ravi: We have talked about quiet your mind to experience your soul. Nowhere does it say you have to be a person of a certain faith. It did not say you have to be a person of a certain gender. It did not say you have to be a certain age. It did not say anything. It did not say what geography you live in, did not say anything. All it said was to quiet your mind to experience your soul. You can do that. You may be a convicted felon inside a prison. The law might execute you, but you still have the ability to quiet your mind, to experience your soul. Nobody can take that away from you as long as you're a human being. You have that capability.
Ravi: Humanity has used religion to fight with each other and kill each other. To divide us. Spirituality is the greatest unifying force that is there because it's there in all of us. Every one of us has the ability to quiet our mind, to experience the soul. We do not need anybody else's permission. It doesn't matter how others judge us or not, we have that capability. Exercise that capability. It is available to you 24/7 in your own home. That is what God, the Universe nature has gifted you, that is the ultimate purpose, work on experiencing your soul.
Louie: Absolutely beautiful. I would urge people to go to the website, folks, so wonderful, HappySoulHungryMind.com, HappySoulHungryMind.com. Read the book, go to the website and learn more about Ravi Kathuria. You're wonderful. Let's do this again.
Ravi: I would love to. Louie, you are fantastic. I appreciate your energy, sir. Thank you. It makes me feel so good. Thank you. What a privilege. Thank you.
Louie: Back at you. Your energy is wonderful. I love the conversation off-air and we were talking a little bit before. I just. I love your energy. This is our first time together. We'll do it again soon. Please, Ravi. I would like that. I would like to thank you again. I would again urge you enough to go to the website, have that as a starting point again, HappySoulHungry Mind.com, HappySoulHungryMind.com.
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