My interview with Tom Sumner of the Tom Sumner Radio Show
I was interviewed by Tom Sumner of the Tom Sumner radio show hosted on WFOV 92.1 FM in Flint, Michigan.
http://www.tomsumnerprogram.com/
I really enjoyed the interview with Tom. He asked probing questions in a gentle manner. What is spirituality? What is the difference between religion and spirituality? He asked an interesting question about soul and mind, which many people confuse with each other. It was good to shed light on that subject.
We then talked about ways to quiet the mind, from visiting places of worship to spending time in nature.
Then Tom made a comment… he was highly perceptive, in making this remark — I was delighted. He said, “There are a number of different ways to try to quiet your mind. But I wonder if people are fully aware that that's the goal.”
It is such a powerful question/observation. The reason for all the religions, all the scriptures, all the talk about God and heaven, all the talk about spirituality, all the time spent in nature, all the time spent in community service — the goal of all of those pursuits is — to quiet the mind! That is the Goal!! That is the highest pursuit in life. Nothing else comes close to it, no other purpose, no other goal. When we learn to quiet the mind, our life transforms!
Quiet the Mind — That is the Goal!
You can watch the video above and/or read the entire interview below. Thank you.
— By Ravi Kathuria, Author, Spirituality Book, “Happy Soul. Hungry Mind.”
Full interview
Tom: Hi, this is Tom from the Tom Sumner program. My long format interviews with New York Times bestselling authors, photographers and writers from National Geographic, as well as artists, musicians, candidates and elected officials are made possible by listeners like you.
Tom: We're going to talk this hour about a different kind of nutrition with the author of a book called "Happy Soul. Hungry Mind." His name is Ravi Kathuria. I think I'm pronouncing that right. Ravi, welcome to the show.
Tom: Ravi, did I pronounce your last name right? Kathuria.
Ravi: I thought you did great, sir. It is Kathuria. That was really good.
Tom: I've been worried about it for a day or two.
Tom: Well, tell me in the book "Happy Soul. Hungry Mind." you attempt to demystify spirituality. How is spirituality mystified and how is it distinct from religion?
Ravi: Thank you, Tom. Great question. We're jumping right into it.
So, you asked me two parts to that question. Let's talk about the first one about demystifying spirituality.
I have been thinking about spirituality since I was young, and I spend a lot of years thinking about why spirituality was so complex.
Because whenever I listened to spiritual leaders and spiritual authors, they described spirituality in such complex terms, it was almost scary.
I realized I needed to get a new Ph.D. in English to understand the terms that they were using. They used words heavy words. And then if you try and read those books or even the scriptures, it is heavy stuff.
I realized if spirituality is so germane to us, if it is important to us, why does it have to be so complex? Why was it designed that way?
It hit me one day. I came to the realization, spirituality is not complex, spirituality is as simple as you can make it.
It was just that the descriptions that people had used to describe spirituality made it mystical. They put on all these layers. They mixed it with religion, and suddenly spirituality became complex and it became out of reach of the common man.
When I think about what I want to do in life, I want everyone on Earth to understand spirituality is really simple.
Tom: Yeah, I'd like to do that because the way I hear spirituality referred to under two different conditions. One is somehow measuring a person's commitment to their faith in a particular religion. The other is to talk about not being religious but being spiritual. That's two different things. If we don't understand what spirituality means, we're probably not using it properly.
Ravi: Yes, great question, sir.
This ties back to your earlier question about the difference between religion and spirituality.
Let me share an example. Say you want to go to the airport, and you have several choices for ground transportation. You can call a cab, you can take a bus, or you could take a train or a subway based on which city you are in.
You have choices for ground transportation. There are organized ways, some organization has provided that capability, or you could say, “No, I'm not going to use organized transportation, I'm going to drive myself, or if you're staying close by, bicycle there. Whatever mode of transportation you choose, you could get to the airport.
I equate these modes of transportation to religion. If you are taking a bus, you're subscribing to some religion. If you are taking your own car, you are believing in your own beliefs."
It doesn't matter which mode of transportation you use to get to the airport. Because there, the gate agent doesn't ask you, "Tom, how did you get here?"
The gate agent checks your paperwork and lets you board the flight. That flight represents spirituality.
This is a great philosophical point. Religion is a means to get you to spirituality. You could be an atheist and still get to the airport.
The philosophical point is that if you reach the airport and you say, “I arrived in the fanciest car, I have a Rolls-Royce or a Ferrari, I love my car so much I'm not going to let go of my car. If you do that, you will never be able to board the flight.
Religion is a means to get to spirituality, but there is a juncture at which you have to leave behind religion. You then board the plane, the flight of spirituality.
Spirituality and religion can go hand in hand if religion takes you to spirituality. Religion reminds you, it makes it easier to get to spirituality because there is an organization that facilitates it. There is a community that facilitates it. But you must remember, the goal of religion must be to get you to spirituality.
Tom: And is that, in fact, the goal of most religions?
Ravi: It should be.
There are a lot of interpretations that people have of religion, but as I see it, religion must lead you to spirituality. I see that as the purpose of religion.
We all need the help, we need the support, and religion can be extremely helpful in helping us in difficult times, right, because it can give us a foundation, a structure that we can hold on to, otherwise, we will be completely lost and overwhelmed in life.
Religion has a very important place in our lives. Faith can have a very important place, but we have to understand if we have not made progress towards spirituality, if I have spent all my time just focused on religion, then I may have missed out on the most important aspect of life. And that aspect is spirituality.
Tom: What do we say to people who seem to be spurning religion and yet claim to be very spiritual?
Ravi: Yes, people may have questions about religion. They believe in some aspect of it and not believe other aspects of it… let’s first discuss the definition of spirituality. If we understand what spirituality is, then we can understand better how religion and spirituality fit together.
Let's discuss the simplest definition of spirituality that you could find probably anywhere. It couldn't get any simpler. And may I submit to you, sir, it may not get any grander than this.
What is spirituality? I hope your listeners are paying attention. This is probably one of the most important things I could share with them on this news Tuesday morning.
Spirituality is the experience of our own soul. It is the connection with our own soul.
Now, what is the soul? People use different terms to describe the soul. People call it spirit, soul, they call it atma in Sanskrit, they may call it rooh in Urdu. In every language there is a word for the soul, but what is it?
It is the life force that is in you and me. It is the energy that gives me dynamism. Once this energy leaves, the doctor is going to call my wife and say, "I'm sorry, Ravi left."
My body will still be there, but the doctor will say, no, he's gone. He passed away. Why? That energy is gone. That energy is who I am. The soul...
Tom: Could you call it consciousness?
Ravi: Yes, yes.
Consciousness, awareness, are driven by this energy. Once this energy leaves, consciousness disappears. Awareness disappears.
Spirituality is about connecting with this energy.
Tom: It's the level to which you are in touch with your own soul.
Ravi: Yes.
And it can strengthen and all of us. We can have glimmers of our own souls.
We experience the soul in many different ways. When the sun is shining in the sky, but if you have a cloudy day, you don't see it. When the clouds move away, you start seeing the sun.
Tom: I wanted to ask you something about the title of the book, Happy Soul. Hungry Mind. Are those two things separate, or is there a reason that you put them together in the title?
Ravi: Ah, what a wonderful question, sir.
When I was writing the book, and before it was published, I went asked a lot of people what they thought about the title. They said they loved the title. They said the hungry mind as they heard it, it represented to them the curious mind, the mind that was hungry for knowledge. And then, of course, the soul is all happiness.
The book is completely opposite to what they interpreted. The book talks about the mind not being hungry in terms of curiosity but being hungry in terms of being never satisfied.
The mind is always restless, it's always asking for more. It's never content, no matter how much you achieve in life, it wants more. And the mind has its fears, its apprehensions, its stress and anxiety. It has greed. The mind is always hungry.
We have to realize we are all seeking happiness. We're all seeking peace. But we try to do that by satisfying the mind. The problem with trying to satisfy the mind is that it never gets satisfied.
I shouldn't say it's a problem with the mind, that's just the nature of the mind. I cannot complain the fire is hot. That is its nature. The mind's nature is to be restless. The question is — I use this line in the book — the mind can be your best friend or your worst enemy.
Tom: Absolutely right.
Ravi: You want to choose. Do I want the mind to lead me or do I want to lead the mind?
Think about people who have a dog. Some people, the dog is leading them, and other people the dog is following them. It depends on how they have trained the dog.
Do you want the mind to be in control of you or do you want to be the person who is in charge of your mind?
You are not the mind. So, who are you? You are the owner of the mind. We need to be the owners of the mind. And we need to say to the mind, “You work for me.” The day we all get to that stage will be a beautiful phase of our life because the mind will do our bidding.
We need the mind to interact with the world, but we need to understand that the mind is constantly hungry, and when we try to achieve happiness through the mind, we keep falling short.
So then where is the source of happiness? Where is the source of permanent happiness? That source of permanent happiness lies beyond the mind.
And that is where spirituality comes in.
Tom: When you talk about the soul, you talk about it as being happy or where happiness can occur. The mind is always hungry. But yet I encounter people who don't seem to have a hungry mind. They don't seem very curious. And there are people who would say they have a troubled soul. What role does spirituality play in having those two distinct parts of our energy?
Ravi: I explain it in this manner. The soul is pristine, the soul is pure. The soul is pure energy. You do not have a troubled soul, what you have is a troubled mind.
We don't have good or bad people, we have good or bad minds. If you want to distill that even further, it's not good or bad minds, it's good or bad thought. It's good or bad memories, it's good or bad feelings based on all the thoughts that we have collected.
I do not say someone is a troubled soul. People say you are a good soul, you are a bad soul. You're an old soul, you are a new soul. Energy is neither old and new, energy is not good or bad. Energy is just simply energy.
It's like watching a TV. On your TV, you may either watch a peaceful beautiful lake and or watch a bubbling volcano that is hot. In either case, your TV does not become cold or hot. The TV has nothing to do with what you are watching on it. The temperature of the TV doesn't change because you are watching a volcano on it.
The soul is pure and pristine. What are you overlaying on it? Your mind. You may have a troubled mind or stable mine, a curious or non-curious mind, a hungry or satisfied mind. It's all about the mind and we need to understand that. We need to stop projecting that onto the soul. The soul is pure.
Tom: That's such an important point and I'm so glad you explained that, because I think a lot of people do feel like they have a troubled soul when in fact, I think you're right, Ravi. I think it really is their mind.
Ravi: Yes, Tom, thank you for underscoring that.
I want to add this point. When people say, "I have a troubled mind." That is the solution right there. They can put a distance between them and their mind, and say, "My mind is going through a lot of apprehensions. My mind is going through a lot of struggles." Then they can begin to separate a little from the mind. Now, it takes a lot of time and effort to develop a separation from the mind. But over time it is possible.
Tom: And then it becomes a matter of learning to quiet your mind.
Ravi: Yes. Yes, sir. Great observation.
In my book, I share a statement or a mantra. It is the most important spiritual statement. The ultimate purpose for our lives is to quiet our hungry minds, so we can let our happy souls shine.
That is the purpose. If we can quiet the mind, then, like the sun shines through when the clouds dissipate, once the mind is quiet, the soul shines through. It's the beauty of nature. It is the amazing gift that we have and all we have to learn to do in our life, the purpose of our lives, is to learn to quiet the mind.
Tom: I wonder, there are so many ways that people turn to do that. It could be, you know, reading the Bible, it could be meditation. There are a number of different ways to try to quiet your mind. But I wonder if people are fully aware that that's the goal.
Ravi: Oh, wow! Tom, you are so perceptive, you are so perceptive, you have hit the nail on the head.
Tom: Well, I get lucky sometimes.
Ravi: Ha, ha. I want to pay you more respect than that. This is more than luck. You have caught on to the point.
Hopefully, this segment today will remind people of what you have just said. There are so many ways to quiet the mind. You can go to church, especially on the day when nobody is there, there is no sermon. You're just sitting there all by yourself. And what happens when you are not thinking about, I have to pay a mortgage, or what my boss is thinking, or what my spouse is thinking, or whether my kids have food to eat, or I have to go check on my parents. You're just sitting there calm and peaceful. Guess what happens?
People come back and say, well, I experienced, I spoke with God. What is happening is that you are experiencing at that moment your peace within. You're experiencing the glimmer of your own soul when the mind is quiet.
There are other people who go climb mountains, right. When they reach the summit, there is no one else there, they are just by themselves. They look around, there is no other thought in their mind, and they experience the peace within. That is the glimmer of the soul.
We all have to realize the goal is to quiet the mind so we can experience the ocean of peace within us. When we connect with our soul, when we begin to experience our soul, we are filled with so much peace. That experience is... amazing. You cannot describe it, words cannot describe that experience.
Tom: It's so interesting talking about the different ways that people can approach quieting their minds. I'm reminded that I took up golf for a while. I was never very good, but I would tend to go by myself and on days that weren't particularly busy. Basically, I was just taking a walk and I found it to be very restorative and very peaceful and yet I see so many people that dragged their clients and their business associates and their coworkers out on a golf course and turn it into a big meeting when it could be an opportunity to try to achieve some spirituality by quieting your mind.
Tom: And there are so many ways to do it, I mean, I'm just I'm picking one that's a little outside the box. People don't really think of going golfing as a spiritual experience, but it can be.
Tom: Ha, ha. But it can be taking a hike in the woods or as you suggested, going to church at a time when no one else is there. There are lots of paths, but you need to kind of know where you're going.
Tom: I loved your analogy about transportation to the airport. And when you get there and you talk to the ticket agent, he doesn't ask you how you got there. He asks you where you're going.
Ravi: Yes, the soul doesn't care. I have certain beliefs to help me deal with life’s challenges and to make me peaceful.
But my soul does not care what I believe. My beliefs cannot cast an impression on my soul. What I believe or do not believe is a dimension of my mind. My mind keeps changing its beliefs, my mind is faithful one day, it's not faithful the next day. It doesn't matter what the mind does, the soul is unaffected by what the mind does.
Tom: I think I'm getting to understand this a little bit, Ravi. When we talk about spirituality being a way to get in touch with your soul, which is ultimately your happy place, and in order to do that effectively, we've got to get our mind to shut up.
Tom: And that's such a great analogy because if you can remove the clouds, then you can see the sun and it literally changes your mood.
Ravi: Yes.
The sun is always there, it's always present, and it just shines through. You don't have to do anything at that point. You don't have to call out to the sun. You don't have to do a sun-dance. You don't have to worship it, you don't have to give it offerings or bribe it. It just shows up.
As soon as the clouds dissipate, the sun has no choice but to shine through. And that is the crux of spirituality. I hope people will read the book because I talk about this in the book. It's how the soul will shine through because it has no choice. It is nature. When the mind is quiet, you will experience glimmers of your soul. It is guaranteed. It is a law of nature. It will happen to you.
Whether you are religious or not your soul will shine through. I talk about why spirituality does not discriminate. The soul doesn't care what the mind thinks. The soul doesn't care what body you are, whether you are a male, female or transgender, what your sexual identity is. You're gay or straight, it doesn't matter to the soul. The soul will shine through if your mind is quiet.
Tom: And there's a full circle to this, too, if you can quiet your mind, get in touch with your soul. You can then inspire your mind to have better thoughts, better solutions.
Ravi: Yes, you are a wonderful man, sir. Thank you. You are so wonderful. I hope your listeners appreciate you because what you have just described is that when we begin to connect with the peace within, our fears and anxieties in the mind that we have been harboring for years, their hold on us becomes lesser and lesser.
The mind stops chasing. Otherwise, I think, I have x amount of money in the bank. Now if I can get 2x, if I can double it, then I will be happier.
Once you have experienced the peace within, then you say, yes, I need the money because I need to sustain myself. I don't want to sleep on the street, I need a certain amount of money, but the hold that money has on you becomes lesser. Everything that you see in life, you're not as bothered by it as much. You begin to live a life that is so wonderful. The quality of your life improves. Wherever you go… we have the phrase, “Smelling the roses.…”
Tom: Yeah.
Ravi: You say, well, I've been coming to this golf course for 20 years, but I'm seeing it for the first time.
Tom: I was at that very golf course I was telling you about. One time and I got to the seventh hole and there's a big trash can there by where you tee off. And I just happened to glance in it and there was a golf club bent in half sticking in this trash barrel, and I thought, there's somebody that isn't doing it right.
Tom: They're not having the joy they could be having out here.
Tom: Exactly, exactly. It was an interesting moment for me of realization. Some people take it way too seriously. I was never a good golfer, but I did find happiness. I did enjoy it.
Ravi: Yes. We talk about the things that we don't have, but we have our families and loved ones. I tell people, especially those who have young kids, I say to them, take some time out and go into the room where the kids are playing and just watch them for 30 seconds.
Tom: Oh, yeah.
Ravi: Record that memory in your own mind. We have cameras and, camcorders these days, but the memories that we record in our mind, that 10 years from now, 15 years from now, will serve you very well. And we have to string through these beautiful moments that we have in life.
Tom: Ravi, the one thing that we're running out of his time, but I always want to give guests an opportunity to let listeners know where they can find out more about what we've been talking about. Obviously, the book is a great place to start. "Happy Soul, Hungry Mind." by Ravi Kathuria and Ravi, in the 30 seconds or so that we have left, do you have a website?
Ravi: Yes, sir, HappSoulHungryMind.com
Tom: Perfect. Well, Ravi, it's been a real pleasure talking with you. I can't believe how fast the time has gone. I feel like you and I could talk about this for hours.
Ravi: Yes. Thank you, sir. Thank you. What a pleasure. And what an honor, sir. Thank you for inviting me and for hosting me. And I enjoyed our conversation. Thank you so much.
Tom: Take care. Once again, the name of the book is called "Happy Soul. Hungry Mind." by Ravi Kathuria.
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